The Case for Predestination

On The Unconditional and Unmerited Grace of God in Salvation.

(Part One of: A Dialogue With A Seventh-Day Adventist).

***The following is a part of series on a dialogue I had with an interested and prospective party, the names and some of the wording of the dialogue has been changed to protect anonymity. The sections posted here are not in the order in which they were discussed in the original email correspondence. Any additional wording attributed to either side of this dialogue was added for clarity and is inconsequential to the substance of either side in the original dialogue.

The bold text in brackets are the questions and comments of the person we shall call Ms. Laura Peale, a Seventh-day Adventist interested in joining a Christian community outside the United States.

In these dialogues, of which there shall be several, we discuss various doctrines based on questions she had asked of me, or challenges she proposed.***

On The Unconditional and Unmerited Grace of God in Salvation.

Ms. Laura Peale Asks:

[[Regarding your conversation with the Anabaptists; I am actually trying to see how your differing views are exclusive?

Personally, I think they are both correct based on what I have seen in Scripture. I mean, it seems to me that God has given us all grace freely through Jesus; However, God never forces anyone, and it is our responsibility to choose to accept the free gift by responding to the Holy spirits conviction to realize our sinful condition, that we cannot become righteous/holy on our own, then by the faith God gives us we repent and receive the gift of salvation. 

What do you think of that idea?]]

Our Answer,

If Grace is free, then it is unconditional, that is, we receive it without any conditions or merits on our part. This is why the two views are not compatible, if we have to make a “free decision” for Jesus or “repent” prior to receiving grace and without it; then the grace becomes merited or earned by definition as it is received only on those conditions. My position is that grace is unconditional, that is, even our choice to choose Christ and repent can only occur if God first works in us to do so.

Hence, if you choose to believe in Jesus by faith, it is only possible for you to do so because the Holy Spirit gave you that faith. God makes the first essential move to make it even possible for you to believe. This is because mankind is entirely corrupted by sin and is unable to do anything to please God, let alone receive him by Faith.

This is very important, and Scripture is quite clear on this. No one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3) and anyone who acknowledges that Jesus came in the flesh can only do so if they have the Holy Spirit (1 John 4:2).

This has obvious implications; namely, that anyone who believes in Christ by Faith, or in His incarnation, or repents of their sin, can only do so if God first changed their hearts to do so, for in the flesh we are entirely helpless.

Thus, God had to work in you, while you were still an unwilling sinner, to change your heart to believe. Hence, you cannot choose God or repent without God first changing your heart for you to do so.

“For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to Gods law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Romans 8:5-8:8)

If you are in the flesh, you cannot repent, for repentance pleases God. You cannot choose to accept Jesus Christ in the flesh, because accepting Jesus pleases God. Hence, to do those things, you must first have been changed by the Holy Spirit to do so, contrary to your sinful and fleshly will.

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Mrs. Laura Peale Replies:

[[... It seems to me that you believe, and take the position, that every person is saved or lost at birth?

When I took all scriptures about that topic and looked at them, it just doesn't line up with a character of Love in God that would necessitate free-will of His subjects.]]

We Rebut,

Man’s will is not “free” to choose or not choose God, man only ever chooses to do evil while he is in the flesh, only by God’s first changing them can they choose God and have a “free will,” for our will is bound, with everything else in us, to our sinful nature.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:1-2:6)

Just like the text in Romans 8, notice that we are dead, slaves to evil, unable to do anything good, in the flesh. We are helpless, hopeless, wicked, dead, enslaved, and in open rebellion. Can such a person choose to accept Jesus Christ as his savior? Can such a person repent of their sins and turn to God by his own “free will?” No, he cannot, in fact he WILL not do so, for those in the flesh, those who are dead, cannot and will not please and love God and submit to the Law of God.

If you are following what I underlined, it is clear what has to happen:

“BUT GOD….” (Eph 2:4)

God is the one who loved us and had mercy on us while, yet we were still dead. Then, He (GOD) made us alive in Christ, by Grace alone. God does all the work to save us, we can do nothing. All that is good in us comes from the work of God.

So, does this necessitate that God also must predestine some of us to eternal life?

Yes.

After all, if God did not first choose those who will be saved without consideration of their desires or will, then it would depend on us to choose and therefore our choice in order to be saved. If this were the case, God’s grace could not be the principal reason we are saved.

Textually, the only way to prove such predestination would be if there are verses that say that God chose us and we did not choose Him, does such a text exist?

Indeed, it does, right from the mouth of Jesus Christ:

“You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.” (John 15:16)

This text also comes after a lengthy explanation on how we can do nothing, indeed we cannot produce good works or follow the law, unless we are united in, and abide with, the Grace of Christ (in the vine). The facts are laid out for us by our Savior, He is the One who tells us that we did not choose Him, but that He chose us. In fact, He not only chose us, He chose that we should even bear fruit and abide in Him at all. We literally can do nothing apart from Him.

God clearly predestines those who will go to heaven. IF he didn’t then grace would be earned by our choosing it, which contradicts the Scriptures on the fact that we are sinners in need of grace.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.” (Ephesians 1:3-6)

Obviously, predestination is not contrary to His love, because He says so right here that we were predestined “in love” (Eph 1:4-5). This text is pretty plain; before the world was made, He has chosen us who are in Christ to the purpose of His will, to be holy and blameless. We didn’t get a say in it, because if we did get a say, we would say and do anything other than accept Christ.

This is overwhelming in Scripture, and it is not unloving at all unless you apply human standards and notions to God. God did not have to save us, He chose to.

The fact is this, either God has free will or we do, it cannot be both, for to say that God reacts to our decisions in time is to deny both his omnipotence and omniscience and to make His actions contingent on ours; however, the Scriptures are clear that he foreordains whatsoever comes to pass (Ephesians 1:10-11), that in Him we live and move and have our Being (Acts 17:28), and that He upholds all things by the Word of His power (Hebrews 1:3), and in Him all things consist (Colossians 1:17). Indeed, he even prepared our good works beforehand that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10).

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Ms. Laura Peale Appeals:

[[It just seems to me that God would not choose for people to go to Hell or to leave them to be condemned without hope. Where in Scripture do you see God condemning people before they were born or had the opportunity to turn to Jesus? Why would God do such a thing?

How is that fair if we don’t even get the choice? How can He judge us for something we could not help either way?]]

Our Reply:

As far as our state before we are born? I don’t know how you can get around Romans 9:11-24.

Let’s break it down.

“Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!” (Romans 9:11-14)

1. Before they were born and before they had done any actions, God made His choice as to whom he would love and whom he would not. The text is plain.

2. God made this choice for the purpose of His election that it would not be because of anything in those whom he had chosen (unconditional), so that anyone who is saved can only be said to be saved because God first chose them. This is the whole point of this text and many others.

3. God is not unjust in doing this. The next section will be St. Paul’s defense as to why this does not make God unjust, but this part makes clear that He is not, and we are obligated to believe in what the Scripture says even if it is hard for us to understand. God predestines us, and He is not unjust in doing so, thus saith the Lord.

“For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So, then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”  So, then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.” (Romans 9:15-18)

And what shall we say about this part of the text?

1. God is not unjust because, as the Old Testament teaches, God declares that He has the right to decide who He will save and who He will not save. It is His right as the Creator and Sustainer of all things.

2. It does not depend on human will or exertion at all. This is what the text says, your will and exertion have nothing to do with you being saved, only God has anything to do with you being saved.

3. If this was not enough, St Paul makes clear from the Old Testament Scriptures that God even has the right to harden people to prevent them from repenting and accepting the truth, even against their will and reason, and that He has done so in the past. St. Paul says this elsewhere where he argues that God will even send a strong delusion in the future which will cause people to believe falsehood (2 Thessalonians 2:11).

“You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:19-24)

This part of the text ties it up into a nice little bow.

1. St. Paul answers the very question you or any other person who struggles with God would ask. “If we are all chosen one way or the other, then why does God judge us for our sin if we couldn’t help it anyway?”

What is St. Paul’s answer to this? Shut your impious mouth. LOL

Who the heck do you think you are to question God Almighty and His Perfect Will?

You are a dirty dish plate and he made you in the kiln for that purpose, what right do you have to question Him?

The answer is NONE.

2. The reason God does this is for His own glory and the reason he raises up bad dudes like pharaoh or Nero etc, is for our ultimate benefit. All of our suffering is for our own good if we are His, as St. Paul also says, “He works all things for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28)

Indeed, one of my favorite passages is in Exodus, where Moses tries to question God because of his speech impediment, and God angrily tells Him Who is really in charge.

“Then the LORD said to him, “Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? (Exodus 4:11)

Why are men born blind or deaf? Why are we born with disabilities, etc?

Because of Sin?

Yes, for the judgement by which we are condemned in on account of either our original inherited guilt and corruption from Adam (and in this sense our damnation, unlike our salvation, is not entirely unconditional).

HOWEVER, is it also abundantly clear that, ultimately and more importantly, all men either enter eternal life or eternal death because God has willed it just as He has willed all things. This is what God Himself says.

Some people think that this makes God evil and so would twist or outright deny the Scriptures in order to hide from the reality of Who God Is.

However, we would say this, that it is not God who is evil, but we who are evil. Indeed, the very fact we are so willing to question the will of God and impugn and judge His character demonstrates that we are in fact the ones who are really evil and whose motives ought to be questioned always.”

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We Conclude Thus,

Let us reflect on the words written down long ago in the Book of Job (Where St. Paul likely derived his own theology in Romans 9:19-24.

“Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?..."

Then Job answered the LORD, and said, Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further…

Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, "Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee and declare thou unto me. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud and abase him. Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee…" 

Then Job answered the LORD and said: “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.  ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore, I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.  ‘Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.’ I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore, I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 38:1-5, 40:3-5, 40:7-14, 42:2-6)

-Joshua Johnson